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secutanudu

Active Member

Posts: 36

Location: Guilderland, NY (Near Albany)

31

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 9:36pm

A little lost with that comment. I was under the impression that you needed a big-time 50+CFM compressor to blow out a sprinkler system?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your blowout method...

Thanks for all your advice, by the way. I am glad I'm getting this stuff answered before I start digging.

Wet_Boots

Supreme Member

Posts: 3,876

Location: Metro NYC

32

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 9:50pm

A pro will never use a small compressor, but it isn't like mister homeowner has to winterize twenty-nine systems a day. Just look around at other installations. If you want an extra blowout valve downstream of the PVB, then install one.

Fireguy97

Advanced Member

Posts: 77

Location: Kamloops, In Beautiful British Columbia

33

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 9:55pm

For boots
Town of Guilderland, NY
272-13 Determination of degree of hazard; type of protection; auxiliary water supply

Each service connection from the Town water supply shall be protected against backflow of water from the premises into the Town water supply.

A.If the auxiliary water supply handled in a separate piping and cross-connections are known to exist between the Town supply and auxiliary which cannot be presently eliminated, the Town water supply shall be protected by an approved reduced pressure zone device. When the Town water supply may be contaminated, the Manager may order the Town supply protect u by an air gap separation installed at the service connection.



B.Toxic or hazardous substances.

(1)Toxic or hazardous substance under pressure. At the service connection to any premises on which a toxic substance or material dangerous to health, is or may be handled under pressure, the Town water supply shall be protected by air gap separation. The air gap separation shall be located as close as practicable to the property line, and receiving tanks shall be entirely visible. If the conditions cannot be reasonably met, the Town water supply shall be protected by an approved reduced pressure zone device, providing this alternative is acceptable to the Manager and County Health Officer.



(2)Toxic or hazardous substance not under pressure. At the service connection to any premises on which a toxic substance material dangerous to health is or may be handled, but not under pressure, the Town water supply shall be protected by an air gap separation or an approved (RPZ) reduced pressure zone device. The RPZ or air gap shall be located as close as practicable



C.Nonhazardous substance. At the service connection to any premises a substance that would be objectionable is handled so as to constitute a cross-connection, the Town water supply shall be protected by an approved double check valve assembly.



D.Sewage treatment plant and pumping stations. At the service connection to any sewage treatment plant or sewage pumping station, the air gap shall be located as close as practicable to the property line and all piping between the water meter and receiving tanks shall be entirely visible. If these conditions cannot be reasonable met, the Town water supply shall be protected by an approved



E.Fire systems. At the service connection to any premises in which a fire protection system is installed, the Town water supply shall be protected with an approved backflow prevention device in accordance with the following classifications:



(1)Class 1: direct connection from public water mains only; no pumps, tanks or reservoirs; no physical connections from auxiliary water supplies; no anti-freeze or other additives of any kind; all sprinkle drains discharging to the atmosphere, dry wells, or other safe outlets: protection (min) double check valve assembly.



(2)Class 2: same as Class 1, except booster pumps may be installed in the connections from the street mains. Booster pumps shall avoid drafting so much water the water main is reduced below 20 p.s.i.: protection (min) double check valve assembly.



(3)Class 3: direct connection prom public water supply main plus one of the following: elevated storage tanks; fire pumps taking suction from above ground covered reservoirs or tanks; and pressure tanks: protect (min) double check valve assembly.



(4)Class 4: directly supplied from public mains, similar to Classes 1 and 2, and with an auxiliary water supply on or available to the premises; within 500 feet of the pumper connection: protection air gap or reduced pressure zone device.



(5)Class 5: directly supplied from public mains, and interconnected with auxiliary supplies, such as pumps taking suction from reservoirs exposed to contamination, or rivers and ponds; driven wells; mills or other industrial water system; or where anti-freeze or other additives are used: protection air gap or reduced pressure zone device.



(6)Class 6: combined industrial and fire protection systems supplied from the public water mains only, with or without gravity storage or pumps: protection determined by the manager after repair review of engineering drawings of the system.



F.Miscellaneous apparatus.



(1)Lawn sprinkling systems. At the service connection to any permanently installed lawn sprinkling system, the Town water supply shall be protected by an approved double check valve assembly. The use of lawn sprinkling systems handling liquid fertilizers or other chemicals is prohibited.



(2)Swimming pools solar collection units, boilers, etc. that may directly or indirectly connect to the Town's water supply shall be isolated with an appropriate backflow device as determined in this article.



(3)Exterior hose bibbs. All exterior hose bibbs (faucets) that are connected to the Town's water supply shall be protected from backflow by the means of a hose bibb vacuum breaker.
Irrigation Contractor

Certified Backflow Assembly Tester

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Fireguy97" (Jul 6th 2010, 10:02pm)


Wet_Boots

Supreme Member

Posts: 3,876

Location: Metro NYC

34

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 10:12pm

Thank you for doing the work. Why a code would not specifically mention "Lawn Sprinklers" is beyond me. "lawn sprinkling systems" is a search term I never tried.

-

In any event, my advice is to blow a big wet raspberry at town hall and install an RPZ. Toxic-rated backflow protection cannot be had by way of a DCVA, and a person has the right to protect their water supply to standards employed by responsible regional code authorities. If New York State adopted the National Standard Plumbing Code as a part of their building code, every single DCVA instantly becomes a code violation that must be removed under penalty of law. An RPZ will cover all bases.

-

Toxic-Rated backflow protection. Nothing less. Because the outdoors is toxic, in our modern world. (thank you ChemLawn and Orkin Man)

Fireguy97

Advanced Member

Posts: 77

Location: Kamloops, In Beautiful British Columbia

35

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 10:18pm

Is there any way I can test a backflow preventer myself? i see and have read the instructions on the watts website for their test kits, seems pretty straightforward. I know i'm not certified, but it'd be nice to at least know how to test myself in addition to getting an occasional certified inspection.

Maybe the only thing preventing me is the high cost of the test kits.

You can test it yourself, But you would have to invest in a high cost test kit, and be certified.



Town of Guilderland, NY

272-15 Inspection; records; costs

The consumer on whose premises any protective device is installed shall have each device inspected annually. Each device shall be repaired, overhauled, or replaced at the expense of consumer whenever it is found to be defective. Records of such tests, repairs, and overhauls shall be kept and a copy of such records shall be forwarded to the Department on an annual basis. If successive inspections reveal repeated failures in the operation of any device, the Manager may require more frequent inspections. All test, repairs, and overhauls shall be performed by a New York State certified backflow device tester. If at any time the consumer fails to have any of the required inspections made as required herein or make the above-described records available, the Department shall have the right to inspect the device and the consumer shall pay the cost thereof. The cost of any inspection made by the Department shall be included as a part of the next ensuing municipal water bill.
Irrigation Contractor

Certified Backflow Assembly Tester

Fireguy97

Advanced Member

Posts: 77

Location: Kamloops, In Beautiful British Columbia

36

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 10:24pm

Thank you for doing the work. Why a code would not specifically mention "Lawn Sprinklers" is beyond me. "lawn sprinkling systems" is a search term I never tried.

-

In any event, my advice is to blow a big wet raspberry at town hall and install an RPZ. Toxic-rated backflow protection cannot be had by way of a DCVA, and a person has the right to protect their water supply to standards employed by responsible regional code authorities. If New York State adopted the National Standard Plumbing Code as a part of their building code, every single DCVA instantly becomes a code violation that must be removed under penalty of law. An RPZ will cover all bases.

-

Toxic-Rated backflow protection. Nothing less. Because the outdoors is toxic, in our modern world. (thank you ChemLawn and Orkin Man)

You said yourself that NY is kind of whacked. Why else would they use an odd term to use for a common situation.

British Columbia is on the verge of passing a law stating that Lawns and gardens are a high hazard situation. RPZ's everywhere.

Mick
Irrigation Contractor

Certified Backflow Assembly Tester

secutanudu

Active Member

Posts: 36

Location: Guilderland, NY (Near Albany)

37

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 10:29pm

So - I can do an RPZ OR a PRV at my house. Maybe I'll decide that after I install my 1" line and see what my pressure/flow is like. I should be able to handle the pressure loss from either, though.

Wet_Boots

Supreme Member

Posts: 3,876

Location: Metro NYC

38

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 10:38pm

Once you have an ordinance requiring a DCVA, I throw in the towel and install the RPZ, because I do know that there are some genuinely toxic risks out there. (think termite treatments in poly-pipe territory), and I have to please two masters, the town pinhead who would be looking for something with two check valves, and the homeowner (and myself), especially in areas that are lax about the inspections.

-

If a town wants to take a position that they don't trust anyone to get the elevations right, when it comes to vacuum breaker usage, that is a valid (but darn lazy) viewpoint.

secutanudu

Active Member

Posts: 36

Location: Guilderland, NY (Near Albany)

39

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 10:55pm

The guy at my town also told me that if i install a backflow preventer (which I have to) then i HAVE to install an expansion tank on my water heater. But if I install the backflow AFTER tee-ing off to my sprinkler system, then I shouldn't need it, as the thermal expansion of my hot water could still go back to the meter.

These are reasons why permits and inspections (in my town) seem to be a waste of time.

I remodeled my bathroom recently, with a permit and inspections. The guy came in, looked at it for 2 seconds, and said "looks fine". THe electrical inspector didn't even look in the basement or panel, and I had run 3 new circuits.

I haven't decided whether to waste my time & money with an inspection for the sprinklers, or to just do it right, without one. Technically, getting an inspection for my system with an RPZ or PRV would fail...meaning the permit actually made my system LESS safe. Makes me think twice about permits...at least in my town.

secutanudu

Active Member

Posts: 36

Location: Guilderland, NY (Near Albany)

40

Tuesday, July 6th 2010, 10:59pm

Thanks again Mick and wet_boots for all your advice on this.

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