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DerStig

Senior Member

1

Friday, July 14th 2017, 7:22am

Hunter Brass Balve as Main shutoff in Basement

I want to put a master shut off valve in my basement which i can remotely control which only turns on when sprinklers are running. This has to be in the basement because there is a front and back lawn and both have seperate lines feeding from basement.

In my basement there is going to be a tee after water meter, then a manual shut off ball valve and after that I want to put this valve. Then each side of the house has their own reduced pressure backflow preventer outside.

I already bought this valve, it was expensive $167, the model number isIBV-101G-FS

The question is, when I opened the box I saw there is a tag on it that says "do not drink". I called hunter because on their website this valve shows its compatible with potable water. They came back and said this cannot be used in house water. It also has 6-8% lead inside. Now considering my particular use case, is this a problem? My RBZ units will be after this. But can this valve ever cause an issue? If yes, what valve can I use?

Putting seperate valves outside is not an option right now unless I have to, way too much digging involved to bring the cable into the house plus I also want to protect the 80' of copper line running in my basement as part of this valve. In other words, when i m on vacation, I want the entire system to be on only when it needs to.

Wet_Boots

Supreme Member

Posts: 5,133

Location: Metro NYC

2

Friday, July 14th 2017, 8:20am

You will not be able to install a basement master valve and have a good system when there are backflow preventers downstream of said master valve. If you have to have a master valve on a system with two supply outlets, then bite the bullet and install two master valves, one at each location, downstream of the backflow preventers, which is the only location where they belong.

DerStig

Senior Member

3

Friday, July 14th 2017, 8:59am

You will not be able to install a basement master valve and have a good system when there are backflow preventers downstream of said master valve. If you have to have a master valve on a system with two supply outlets, then bite the bullet and install two master valves, one at each location, downstream of the backflow preventers, which is the only location where they belong.


Why wont it be a good system? The primary reason for this isnt actually my lack of willingness to trench outside but the concern I have for having 100 some psi water constantly traveling back and forth in my basement. Because I am using RBZ, I am teeing before the pressure regulator, so my RBZ will see exactly what water main pressure is. Because RBZs are outside, that means there is going to be 80' of 1" copper pipe indoor carrying that massive water pressure. If something goes wrong while I m away, its good to have a master valve indoors at the point of entry of the system. Even if its a small leak, the water will only pressurize in those pipes when sprinklers are running.

Is there no way of doing this? Is it a matter of contaminating the water or is it possible water hammer or what is the reason? Do you have any other suggestions for me as to how I can accomplish this?

Wet_Boots

Supreme Member

Posts: 5,133

Location: Metro NYC

4

Friday, July 14th 2017, 9:54am

Pipe is plenty strong. Unless you are a horribly incompetent plumber, you don't worry about the supply plumbing of a sprinkler system you install yourself.

Much more to the point, is why all this indoor plumbing? Professionals minimize indoor plumbing. Bring the water outside and switch the plumbing material to plastic.

"Lack of willingness to trench" is why you hire this kind of work to be done. For the money, you get over your lack of willingness, and trench where and when needed.

If you are in a part of the country where outdoor underground sprinkler plumbing is by way of polyethylene tubing, you can hire someone with a machine to install the tubing without digging trenches.

By the way, if you have a few thousand dollars to throw around, you can install a single RPZ in the basement, in a specially constructed utility room with a floor drain or oversized basin for the RPZ to drain into. Sometimes, it isn't drainage, but rather full-pressure full-flow gushing water that an RPZ is capable of releasing, which is why indoor RPZ placements require special drainage. If you jumped through all those hoops, then you could install your lead-containing master valve downstream of the RPZ and be code-compliant. {P.S. No one in their right mind would ever do this, but it is do-able}

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Wet_Boots" (Jul 14th 2017, 10:00am)


DerStig

Senior Member

5

Friday, July 14th 2017, 10:22am

Pipe is plenty strong. Unless you are a horribly incompetent plumber, you don't worry about the supply plumbing of a sprinkler system you install yourself.

Much more to the point, is why all this indoor plumbing? Professionals minimize indoor plumbing. Bring the water outside and switch the plumbing material to plastic.

"Lack of willingness to trench" is why you hire this kind of work to be done. For the money, you get over your lack of willingness, and trench where and when needed.

If you are in a part of the country where outdoor underground sprinkler plumbing is by way of polyethylene tubing, you can hire someone with a machine to install the tubing without digging trenches.

By the way, if you have a few thousand dollars to throw around, you can install a single RPZ in the basement, in a specially constructed utility room with a floor drain or oversized basin for the RPZ to drain into. Sometimes, it isn't drainage, but rather full-pressure full-flow gushing water that an RPZ is capable of releasing, which is why indoor RPZ placements require special drainage. If you jumped through all those hoops, then you could install your lead-containing master valve downstream of the RPZ and be code-compliant. {P.S. No one in their right mind would ever do this, but it is do-able}


I have done all the trenching work myself and I installed all the zones. Where I live poly tube is used (1" and 100 psi). Where I live is extremely rocky clay soil where rocks that weigh 40-50 lbs is very common. Lots of tree roots that are thicker than my arm. Irrigation companies dont use pipe puller because it doesnt work. They use a ditch which and they only dig 5-6". I find that inefficient as i live in an area where frost is an issue. My trenches are 12" deep and I placed drainages in all low points. I have dug under all tree roots thare big in order to not to hurt them. During the process, I have also dug under 6 four inch metal drain pipes of the house as well the sewer pipe. All of these pipes were 4-6" below ground and every single one of them would have been shattered by the ditch which or a backhoe they use. Even the most expensive and prestiguous irrigation company told me if they have done this project, they would have destroyed all those pipes (because they are indeed in areas that I never thought they would be) as well as all the tree roots. You see now why I have done it myself? Not to mention the $20-25k cost they quoted me (very steep property as well):)

The plumbing work isnt something I am doing. I hired a plumber and he will do it. The parts alone for the plumbing work cost me $1100. I have 2 of the RBZ valves, 80' of L copper pipe, several ball valves etc. why inside the basement is because it would be nearly impossible to go around the house. We are talking about a massive driveway as well as minimum 400' of trenching required in a steep terrain. Every plumber and irrigation company I called for a quote agreed with this.

I can do the trenching for the master valve no problem, I used around 1200 feet of pipe so far all hand dug trench another 50-100 is nothing to bury the small cable. The problem is the section inside my basement, but as you said I guess chance of that happening so low that probably 60 year old original house piping will go before this. I got L copper and that going bad with these pressure figures is unheard of. I guess it is what it is, I was so excited about that nice brass valve.

What I dont understand is why Hunter advertises this valve as compatible with potable water. If it has lead in it, how can that be?

The question now is, is it okay to connect 2 master valves? I guess i ll use a jumper cable and wire nut them and have 1 cable enter my controller.

Wet_Boots

Supreme Member

Posts: 5,133

Location: Metro NYC

6

Saturday, July 15th 2017, 1:37pm

If a brass plumbing item is lead-free they will specifically tell you that in its description. I can read the Hunter product description of your valve and know that there is no claim of it being lead free, and I also note that there is no claim of it being suitable for contact with the potable water inside your house. Based on the clearly understood standards of professional sprinkler work, there would never be any such contact, and subsequently, no need to get into the matter. The RPZs are supposed to be under continuous pressure. Never should there be a master valve upstream of one. That would lead to water dumping from the RPZs and premature wearing out of internal parts.

The only possibility I can see as a source for your misconceptions about the Hunter valve is that some webpage might have claimed something about how the valve would not be harmed by potable water supplies, (and the chlorine/chloramine treatment chemicals they use.) This is actually a concern for rubber parts in a valve, and materials have changed over the years as water treatments have evolved.

Now that you will be properly locating master valves downstream of the RPZs, your only concerns will be about the pair of them presenting an overload to the controller. Since it's only the cheap controllers that instruct you to connect only one valve to the master valve terminal, I think you won't have problems there. :thumbup:

DerStig

Senior Member

7

Saturday, July 15th 2017, 9:22pm

If a brass plumbing item is lead-free they will specifically tell you that in its description. I can read the Hunter product description of your valve and know that there is no claim of it being lead free, and I also note that there is no claim of it being suitable for contact with the potable water inside your house. Based on the clearly understood standards of professional sprinkler work, there would never be any such contact, and subsequently, no need to get into the matter. The RPZs are supposed to be under continuous pressure. Never should there be a master valve upstream of one. That would lead to water dumping from the RPZs and premature wearing out of internal parts.

The only possibility I can see as a source for your misconceptions about the Hunter valve is that some webpage might have claimed something about how the valve would not be harmed by potable water supplies, (and the chlorine/chloramine treatment chemicals they use.) This is actually a concern for rubber parts in a valve, and materials have changed over the years as water treatments have evolved.

Now that you will be properly locating master valves downstream of the RPZs, your only concerns will be about the pair of them presenting an overload to the controller. Since it's only the cheap controllers that instruct you to connect only one valve to the master valve terminal, I think you won't have problems there. :thumbup:


I see. It makes sense now. Thank you for your response. I have Rachio and I dont know if 2 valves as 1 master will be okay. I will send an email to them and ask.

That being said, the more I think about it the more I am getting closer to just not doing this because if they are going to be outside there is literally 10 feet combined of poly pipe between the RBZ and the manifold. Its probably just not worth doing this since it wont add much added protection.

Wet_Boots

Supreme Member

Posts: 5,133

Location: Metro NYC

8

Sunday, July 16th 2017, 8:05am

An alternative to increasing system reliability with a master valve is to use flow control zone valves, and throttle them down to match zone flow.

As for the plumbing between the RPZ and the valve manifold, you don't use poly pipe, you use sch 40 PVC, and you configure the plumbing in a way so that you don't have any female pipe threads in the PVC.

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