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The last 9 posts

Friday, September 17th 2010, 8:43am

by HooKooDooKu

RPZ must be installed in an above ground "out doors" location. However, unlike a AVB or PVB, the elevation of the RPZ relative to the sprinkler heads does NOT mater.

As for the valves on each end of the device? That's so the certified technition can test the device in-place.


Can someone give me a backflow device type and associated manufacturers that would be safe to use in the basement. As I understand it there are 5 types:
1. Air-Gap
2. Atmospheric (non-pressure) Type Vacuum Breaker
3. Pressure Vacuum Breaker {PVB}
4. Double Check Valve Assembly {DC}
5. Reduced Pressure Principle Assembly {RP}

I will take this information back to the town to see what they have to say about it. I will ask them about written codes such as ASSE 1013.

Relative to testing, I definitely want to leave that up to the experts; but, I am wondering if the backflow device has to be installed in such a way to allow the expert to test it or are there test ports built in to all backflow devices.


The only device that can EASILY be installed in a basement is the DC. The only requirements for its instilation is that it be accessable for testing. However, the DC is on the lower end of the scale as far as protection is concerned (Air gap, PVB, and RPZ offer more protection) and therefore it is NOT appropriate for systems that inject anything into the water (as in including ferdigation with your install) and many municipalities may not allow it.

I think Wet Boots point was that it is odd that the city would specifically require Watts 909, but your local law very well might require an RPZ (and the inspector is perhaps most familier with the 909).

Friday, September 17th 2010, 7:55am

by Wet_Boots

Not safe and not reasonable - installation must also take malfunctions into account, and they could have the relief valve wide open and continuously dumping all the inlet flow. There is a reason you have floor drains for indoor installs. Read the installation instructions.

Thursday, September 16th 2010, 4:17pm

by dwinmac

Watts 909 Installation Detail Question

it does need to be connected to a drain. It needs to have 12" of elevation from floor to device. The handles on the device need to be functional or positioned so they can be opened and closed. The Test Cocks need to have room or 6" or so of clearance to connect the pressure differential guages to.


I'm beginning to understand a little about this device. One issue that I want to be certain about involves the exact operation of the relief valve. The document says "if both check valves foul and simultaneous negative supply and positive backpressure develop, the relief valve uses the air-in/water-out principle to stop potential backflow".

I just want to be sure that what is meant here is that the supply line will be shut off and the water that is in the pipe going to the sprinklers will empty out via the relief valve. That is, water will only flow out of the relief valve until the pipe to the sprinklers empties.

So, if only the sprinkler pipe water is involved in a two check valve fouling, I think the way I would have this installed in my basement would be to run the supply pipe overhead under the basement ceiling to the utility sink. I would hang it low enough under the ceiling to accomodate testing as described above. An air gap fitting would be connected to the relief valve and a hose or pipe would be connected to the air gap fitting down into the utility sink. The output of the 909 would run back along the ceiling to the control valve manifold.

Does this installation sound safe and reasonable?

Wednesday, September 15th 2010, 8:22pm

by hi.todd

As a tester, I would like to say. If the RP is installed inside, it does need to be connected to a drain. It needs to have 12" of elevation from floor to device. The handles on the device need to be functional or positioned so they can be opened and closed. The Test Cocks need to have room or 6" or so of clearance to connect the pressure differential guages to.

Then is would be ready to be inspected. Paper work is the key as metioned in earlier posts!!

:thumbup: :thumbsup:

Wednesday, September 15th 2010, 2:16pm

by Wet_Boots

Tread carefully when you are getting information from town officials who may not like it when their word might be questioned. One independent source of information can be the local library, who should have a copy of town ordinances, possibly at the reference desk.

-

By the way, you don't have to have a Y-strainer upstream of the RPZ when it's installed outdoors - not that the strainer is a bad thing, but it might make for a big savings if you get an RPZ without it. The $575 price for the 1-inch 909 might have been for the assembly that includes a strainer.

Wednesday, September 15th 2010, 1:31pm

by dwinmac

RPZ must be installed in an above ground "out doors" location. However, unlike a AVB or PVB, the elevation of the RPZ relative to the sprinkler heads does NOT mater.

As for the valves on each end of the device? That's so the certified technition can test the device in-place.


Can someone give me a backflow device type and associated manufacturers that would be safe to use in the basement. As I understand it there are 5 types:
1. Air-Gap
2. Atmospheric (non-pressure) Type Vacuum Breaker
3. Pressure Vacuum Breaker {PVB}
4. Double Check Valve Assembly {DC}
5. Reduced Pressure Principle Assembly {RP}

I will take this information back to the town to see what they have to say about it. I will ask them about written codes such as ASSE 1013.

Relative to testing, I definitely want to leave that up to the experts; but, I am wondering if the backflow device has to be installed in such a way to allow the expert to test it or are there test ports built in to all backflow devices.

Wednesday, September 15th 2010, 1:10pm

by HooKooDooKu

...As for basement installation of an RPZ, it would only be workable in an industrial environment, in a room with a high-capacity floor drain that can handle the entire incoming flow of your home's water supply (in the event of an internal fault in the RPZ)


In-part, the way an RPZ works is that if backflow attempts to occur, or if the device has a critical failure, it will discharge water out of a discharge port rather than allow the water source to become contaminated. And even under normal operations, it's possible for the RPZ to spit a little water when irrigation valves open/close just because of the changing pressure dynamics of the system. The device's weakness is that it can fail if it becomes submerged. So these two things taken together generally means an RPZ must be installed in an above ground "out doors" location. However, unlike a AVB or PVB, the elevation of the RPZ relative to the sprinkler heads does NOT mater.


As for the valves on each end of the device? That's so the certified technition can test the device in-place.

Wednesday, September 15th 2010, 11:59am

by Wet_Boots

Backflow testing is strictly for pros - not because no one else could do it, but because it's an "official" activity, done by people that possess certifications and licenses to do the work, and performed with equipment "officially" calibrated by test labs. No homeowner would ever be able to generate the necessary paper trail involved.

-

The Watts 909 series of RPZs is an old product line, and an expensive one at that. You can google a better price than $578, though. I would want to read the published code that requires you to use a particular make and model of backflow preventer. It may not exist, and all you hear when you ask someone at town hall, may be someone's personal preference. There are specific standards met by backflow preventers, and it is those standards that written codes should be referring to, such as ASSE 1013 for an RPZ assembly. If they would allow you to use the more modern Watts 009 RPZ, you could find one for around $200

-

By the way, the use of a Watts 288 as a whole system protector is entirely bogus. it never ever met any code requirement in that application (it's an atmospheric vacuum breaker) ~ As for basement installation of an RPZ, it would only be workable in an industrial environment, in a room with a high-capacity floor drain that can handle the entire incoming flow of your home's water supply (in the event of an internal fault in the RPZ)

Tuesday, September 14th 2010, 9:36pm

by dwinmac

Town Requires Watts Series 909

I called the Town of Clay, NY and asked what back flow prevention device they required for an in-ground sprinkler system. The response back was Watts Series 909. I found it on the internet.

I do have questions:
1. Plumbersurplus.com has them for $575 on sale from $1248. Is the $575 a reasonable price to expect to pay for the 909?
2. It appears to have either Ball valves or gate valves on both ends. What is the rationale for those?
3. The 1 inch diameter 909 appears to be almost 20 inches long. Am I reading the specs correct here? Is it really that big?
4. There is a relief valve associated with these valves in case of some kind of malfunction. Can the 909 be installed in the basement of my house like the current Watts 288A is?
5. I have seen some really expensive (7 or 8 thousand dollars) Back Flow testers on the internet. Is there a special installation required in order to use the back flow testers? I'm guessing that irrigation contractors would have such a device but would need to connect it to the system to check the backflow device.